[Chance]

unrelated, numbers aside, I'd say my biggest problem with unarmed at the moment is how... boring it is?

a lot of homing dashes versus
chad fatal, powersmash, sweeping cleave, etc

so that's something we'll try to address going forward too, to make it spicier

[Josh]

Gcde is always a problem due to not really having a drawback for what you do except cd. 

The main issue that everyone complaining about gcde in unarmed has is that they began with unarmed and now they don't have it. If the tree started as gcd this wouldn't even be an argument that exists. It shouldn't be gcde, and barely anything should be. 

Here's the main issue between armed and unarmed.

Armed is more clunky. Everything in armed has a shorter range than unarmed except for phantom strike, fatal and galeforce (in terms of range not clunky.) All of the normal armed spells have a base range of 2 + 1 for the step, the 2 is a phantom range that's 1 more tile in front of you, so the total range is 3. This can end up as 4 with garuda. Armed has most of its spells already on a total range of 4 with the dash (no phantom range) with the only one being 3 is weighed punch and everything is a homing in unarmed except lariat. The issue with this being gcde is that you always get closer to your opponent every 4 tiles or- you get to other main issue.

Unarmed has jab. Jab makes unarmed better than armed overall. If you want to compare it to dash strike that's impossible as dash strike leaves you open and gives you no control. Jab is a low cd press to teleport and do low damage while being gcde. It has immediate follow up for anything and everything. Its really one of the best skills in the game for how high the range is too for being low cd and a teleport. It doesn't even have to be an unarmed spell used as follow up.

It's still a combo tree but that combo is reduced to jab + (next skill)

Some legitimate things:

Phantom strike does do too many hits and i didnt notice assault only did 3.  Phantom is a 5 total which ends up as 20 damage. It should be lowered to 4 total hits.


What chance said:

Weight punch doesnt need to be gcde. There really is no reason that it needs it and if you want something legitimate from me? It shouldn't inflict -dr either, it's not necessary at all.

Double slash being gcd is fine.

Lariat does need its damage lowered or else it ends up doing a lot. 4 instead of 3 though. Galeforce and most beams are 4.

[Left Brain]

Unarmed has too many copy paste skills, I think the fix to it is to not have the same 3-4 dash skills with gcde. Instead, the best fix would be that instead of buying into a bunch of GCDE spells, we slim down the tree and just add some better spells as a whole that isn't just "I dash at you and hit you for all your hp on cycle, get gud.".

[Laemor]

While I do agree with your points, josh. As someone who caught glimpse of Unarmed prior to its extensive nerfs. Thanks to me! Complaining about how EASY it is, hardcore... I never really thought so much about the gap closing as too much an issue.

In melee vs melee, gap closing doesn't mean much, you're still forced to go head-to-head. Gap closing is an issue mages have to deal with, but with those i've went against thus far. They have reasonable ways of getting melee's off of them, the same typically they use against ARMED.

Either way, I do agree. Jab's VERY GOOD, but by no means is it the best... Before going against unarmed, I was armed and went against unarmed all the time. Still winning fairly easily. It just requires a different approach. Blocking for instances really does kill an unarmed. Their jab is predictable and you always know they're going to jab into a combo. You block that? And it's alot of mana wasted.

I've went fights where i've oom'd against people. Mainly because, even if jab misses? It drains the mana of the spell regardless tie that in with how much they blocked me. Unarmed is by no means. Unstoppable. People just aren't as used to it. Not nearly as bad as SPATIAL was at least. Now if jab was to get nerfed? Do not touch the range. The meta in general is kitey enough. At 4 tiles I do reach the point where it's difficult to keep up with people at times. If anything, give it the minor delay that spatial had post tp. I could go on longer, but yeah...

lowering damage is fine on things. I personally don't mind the gcd on weighted. I'm ok with that, it's ok right now in general after getting that 1 more range increase. *shrugs*

[Jetniss]

Gcde is always a problem due to not really having a drawback for what you do except cd. 

The main issue that everyone complaining about gcde in unarmed has is that they began with unarmed and now they don't have it. If the tree started as gcd this wouldn't even be an argument that exists. It shouldn't be gcde, and barely anything should be. 

Here's the main issue between armed and unarmed.

Armed is more clunky. Everything in armed has a shorter range than unarmed except for phantom strike, fatal and galeforce (in terms of range not clunky.) All of the normal armed spells have a base range of 2 + 1 for the step, the 2 is a phantom range that's 1 more tile in front of you, so the total range is 3. This can end up as 4 with garuda. Armed has most of its spells already on a total range of 4 with the dash (no phantom range) with the only one being 3 is weighed punch and everything is a homing in unarmed except lariat. The issue with this being gcde is that you always get closer to your opponent every 4 tiles or- you get to other main issue.

Unarmed has jab. Jab makes unarmed better than armed overall. If you want to compare it to dash strike that's impossible as dash strike leaves you open and gives you no control. Jab is a low cd press to teleport and do low damage while being gcde. It has immediate follow up for anything and everything. Its really one of the best skills in the game for how high the range is too for being low cd and a teleport. It doesn't even have to be an unarmed spell used as follow up.

It's still a combo tree but that combo is reduced to jab + (next skill)

Some legitimate things:

Phantom strike does do too many hits and i didnt notice assault only did 3.  Phantom is a 5 total which ends up as 20 damage. It should be lowered to 4 total hits.


What chance said:

Weight punch doesnt need to be gcde. There really is no reason that it needs it and if you want something legitimate from me? It shouldn't inflict -dr either, it's not necessary at all.

Double slash being gcd is fine.

Lariat does need its damage lowered or else it ends up doing a lot. 4 instead of 3 though. Galeforce and most beams are 4.

this, so many times this
I feel like unarmed is going to be a huge problem period so long as jab is what it is. The range is super high, it has a bunch of gap closers and a teleport. Yeah, you can guess/time/watch for that TP and then plan your defense/evasion around it-- but what the fuck? If arm had that kind of reliability people would be crying for life. Imagine every 2 seconds you had to worry about a powersmash landing, or gale force landing, or phantom strike landing. Oh you blocked? well now you're slowed or stunned which sets up for a rotation you can't avoid. Oh, you wanted to counter attack? Maybe they used phantom strike(like unarmed uses assault) and your counter has a 85% chance of failure. Then what? you're on CDs, but guess what, they're warping at you and doing more damage with their two second teleport and throwing whatever else they have. And when you try to counter them? you whiff because they teleport -behind- you, not even in front of you. It's much too powerful an opener to be on such a low CD, at the range it is.

While I do agree with your points, josh. As someone who caught glimpse of Unarmed prior to its extensive nerfs. Thanks to me! Complaining about how EASY it is, hardcore... I never really thought so much about the gap closing as too much an issue.

In melee vs melee, gap closing doesn't mean much, you're still forced to go head-to-head. Gap closing is an issue mages have to deal with, but with those i've went against thus far. They have reasonable ways of getting melee's off of them, the same typically they use against ARMED.

Either way, I do agree. Jab's VERY GOOD, but by no means is it the best... Before going against unarmed, I was armed and went against unarmed all the time. Still winning fairly easily. It just requires a different approach. Blocking for instances really does kill an unarmed. Their jab is predictable and you always know they're going to jab into a combo. You block that? And it's alot of mana wasted.

I've went fights where i've oom'd against people. Mainly because, even if jab misses? It drains the mana of the spell regardless tie that in with how much they blocked me. Unarmed is by no means. Unstoppable. People just aren't as used to it. Not nearly as bad as SPATIAL was at least. Now if jab was to get nerfed? Do not touch the range. The meta in general is kitey enough. At 4 tiles I do reach the point where it's difficult to keep up with people at times. If anything, give it the minor delay that spatial had post tp. I could go on longer, but yeah...

lowering damage is fine on things. I personally don't mind the gcd on weighted. I'm ok with that, it's ok right now in general after getting that 1 more range increase. *shrugs*

Jab would be more reasonable if it could only be followed up by unarmed abilities (not that it matters with Lariat being what it is), but when you got someone who could say, jab, then lariat into a water whip and then a water beam or tidal wave or whatever. It's just ridiculous.

And then you top off every broken build by doing it as a beastkin and getting that sweet movement speed, low CDs from the agi dump that translates back into damage with your racials.

[Laemor]

I'll state this. As someone whose a beastkin unarmed.

You actually don't get as much agi in comparison to an armed human. Unarmed relies solely on their base agi and any agi they might put into their clothing via enchantments. Beastkin also lose out on the +20Agi. Sure you can say wild nature's good, but not because of Agi dumping lmao... Here's a quick example of what a human ARMED can reach + Human unarmed.

Human - Armed Base 200 Agi with Wind magic aura
+20 from racial +20 from wind stance +20 from wind aura +15 from weapon enchantment + 15Agi from gear enchantment = 290agi
(If they went time they can get accelerate which offers 10%agi as well)

Human - Unarmed Base 200 Agi Wind magic Aura
+20 from racial +15 from gear enchantment +20 from wind aura= 255 Agi

Beastkin - Unarmed base 200 Agi Wind magic Aura
+20 from wind aura = 220 Agi

This all if you dedicate a BUILD to it, pretty much. Sure it's not too heavy an investment. But doing simple numbers right here. You can see that humans have the clear superior path to CDR.

PSS Nerf Agi back to what it was in Spires. .13% the two percent difference does make a big deal in the long run. Also, nerf pursues... It's too good combined with RPL at the moment. And since everyone's going agi; mostly. It's pretty much impossible to flee against someone the same rpl or higher than you. Should be like 10x-18x or x19 for pursues. v..v

[Peep 'Puff' Topia]

PSS Nerf Agi back to what it was in Spires. .13% the two percent difference does make a big deal in the long run.

Concurred. Especially when AGI rounds down the timer. You get a crazy amount of CDR on spells now.

[Hated]

I don't think its even intended to activate the spell, Jab, by walking into range and starting the animation to dash away for more range and teleport. That does not sound like how it was intended to function. To say you should be allowed to jump in range, activate and dash away and be rewarded for it by then teleporting from a decent length is not healthy for the game. We already have another spell that's intended for that use and its 20 rpp. Jab shouldn't act like a 20 rpp spell.

So you don't like roundhouse kick. okay, what about dropkick? We want to make each spell viable in their own ways so Im just pitching ideas left and right that can be easily worked on afterwords.

"jesus phantom strike hits 6 times for a total of 24 damage." It hits 5 times, for a total of 16 damage and once it begins you can easily ensnare someone or block the rest of the -obvious- incoming damage. Edit: (not to mention you need 150 agi to even have a total of 5 hits)

Lariat is an intermediate. I don't think this spell should be insanely good, but where its at right now is good for balance while we work on re-arranging the rest of unarmed.

[Jetniss]

Why not just give Iron Body an active with a discernible icon that gives GCDE exemption to unarmed skills only that allows Unarmed to pop off for a few seconds and then go on CD for an extended period of time-- ala Ifrit.

(and do something about Jab, I know there's consistent tears about being kited to death but everyone who doesn't slow stack has an even worse time. Armed have to dash attack into fuck you situations, and when that misses hope to powersmash/sweep cleave close enough to land. And a number of trees lack a powerful enough slow to help manage the power of a strong kiter.)

[Cherury]

After testing it with the new GCDE changes versus how it was in the beginning, I can just say. .

Oh my god, it feels horrible. The GCD is incredibly long for skills that have that short dash range.

Something has to be done to make this a little better. Lariat GCDE to combo setup, with a shorter stun? If not those being GCDE, then Make Weightened Punch, Flying Kick, Axe Kick GCDE.

I hope it gets some love, because big ouch trying it out in a battle.

Happiest solutions:

Some more GCDE Abilities that aren't Lariat

Allow Jab to put a short root on your opponent

Slightly increase damage on certain moves?