[PastaTM]

Now, let me preface this by saying I've had such a great time playing on my Undead character, I've always been curious about them since I started playing this game. I could not have asked for a better Necromancer (who mind you is a deeply close friend of mine) to have this adventure together. However, during my time playing such a character I cannot ignore how painful it is to play as an Undead in the game.

Subject Case: NECROMANCY, UNDEAD, AND YOU!

Issue Number One: "Verb Monkey."

So this is a bit of a stretch but- at the same time? It's not. To get Undeath you have to go off and fight a danger, even then? It's 1 Undeath per fight. Luckily I am bat-shit insane and got over 30 fights (at the time of writing this) in less than 2 weeks of spawning on this character. I love verbing, I enjoy being a battlecuck that just fights and fights because it's what I find fun in this game!

That's not to say it isn't tiring. If you're the only undead for your Necromancer, then by god you have a ton of work to do. Another summon? 5 Undeath, for the Undead that's playing. Perfectly fine, that's 5 fights! But...

Skeletons: The very thing you start out as? Zero Racials, there's not even a discount bonus on Bone? (I mean c'mon why not???). I get it, these are the bare bones (ha) of what an Undead is supposed to be but these are also some of the most miserable times to play. Not only are you weaker than the most basic of races, you are very quickly hunted down. Mind you I was insane and I kept on fighting CONSTANTLY. Punching up? Hell yeah, I was. But I can safely say that if I wasn't someone who enjoyed constantly fighting? This would have become very tiring.

Zombies: Hey, look at that- we're on par with a basic human. I feel like there should be something a bit more creative here. If I wanted to play a human with Sturdy I'd of done so. I really can't imagine something here - the most my brain can come up with is some sort of healing. Maybe some constantly healing moves that an Undead can get at this stage? I don't know, but Sturdy while it's REALLY nice to have. Doesn't seem worth a total of 10 Undeath. Just to get on par with a human.

Champion: I have become Death. Burden, oh my beloved. Burden I fucking adore you but MAN getting to this point was not really amazing. Let's take it so far, right? To get to Champion that's 20 Dangers. That's 20! Dangers! I get it! But what if the Necromancer doesn't want to upgrade you to that point? What if they want to use it on other materials, maybe they want to get the summons before you get here. If you don't have a good Necromancer god knows how long you could be waiting to get to Champion at this point. ...And yeah? Burden is fucking worth it. It's so amazing and I am GLAD I got to this point.

But...

Now what?

There's nothing more after Champion. While demons have something really cool (if they want) to strive for. This being the Imperfect Demon. This ground-shaking, world-changing, amazingly cool moment for the entire game! ...Undead? Well. You really just get Champion. You become a massive threat but you are by no means any more important than John Eternia who has been fighting with great trees, skills, and equipment. I want something more. There has to be something beyond Champion. It's just something to keep them entertained. Imperfects can quite literally break the minds of an Occultist.

It's not a secret that a GOOD UNDEAD can crush out people way above their weight class. There's just not a lot of reward for it. Undead aren't allowed to learn Necromancy either, (One did, but apparently that was a huge mistake). I just want there to be this more air around Undead that they should be feared, something more than just "yeah that's so and so's undead." I adore my Necromancer, because on an OOC level? We're good friends. If I wasn't their friend? If I didn't know them as well as I do? In no fucking world would I be enjoying my time as one, because you as an Undead.

Are just that. You are the means to collect material for the Necromancer. That can get really really draining on most people. I think it comes around to the same issue "Not everyone can play an Antag" to which I agree! I think that's very valid. Good lord though, through the Undead some love here, they are simply struggling in IC and OOC mechanics.

Issue Number Two: "The Risk is not worth the reward"

Pasta what in the world do you mean? Isn't Undeath SUPER strong? Of course, it is! If anything it is one of the MOST powerful collected materials in the game! You can summon more Undead, You can make Arc into a batshit insane addition to a weapon, you can get Deaths Door (300 Undeath later....), and you upgrade your Undead to being horrifying champions! Yes! Undeath is the BEST material in the game, and this isn't even putting into account what you can do for DEV SCENES.

...But

Let's take a look at what's wrong with Undeath. For starters, you get one per danger, hell yeah, fine. A bit sad that it's so small but! I UNDERSTAND why. What I dislike the most is the fact every single year that you don't use Undeath, all your work towards it. Poof. Gone. Let me tell you when I woke up one morning and my Necromancer forgot to collect my Undeath before the year tick, we didn't just lose ONE Undeath, we lost two. That's two dangers for me that I have to go back and earn all over again. Frustrating! Also WHY is Deaths Door 300 Undeath spent!?

The only way for anyone to collect Undeath is through
-Dangers (+1 for Undead only, Necromancers get nothing)
-Necromancers Perming (+3 but only for Necromancers)
-Plaguelands (+3 with a year cooldown)
-Harvesting Bodies (+5 Per Body, Via Necromancer)

Now what about Essences? The lifeblood of the Witches/Warlocks in the game? They can earn it far quicker than any sort of material within the game AS WELL and their abilities are quite strong. (Hex, Dreamwalking, Potions, etc)

The way to earn Essence
-Aggro (+1 for any Witch/Warlock)
-Dangers (+2 for any Witch/Warlock)
-Sabbaths ( +??? Depends on how many Witches/Warlocks are there with a year cooldown)
-Signing the Book of Shadows (+5 to the Owner of the book)
-??? (There's likely something missing here I don't play Witches/Warlocks...)

While Essence is far easier to get, we must also not forget that EVERYTHING they do has a cost for it (Telepathy, Black Mark, Potions, Mask Potions are not included). So on the one hand I really understand why it's easier to get it because things have a constant cost, but what I would like to have? At least something is equal for Necromancers. Plague Lands in my eyes, with only 3 Undeath? Compared to a sabbath where let's say the average is 10-15 Essence every time?

Mind you, Witches can give Essence to one another, You cannot give Undeath to another Necromancer.

The scales are not weighted fairly. AGAIN. I get it! I REALLY REALLY DO. Undeath is the superior material. It always will be. I just wish there was a bit easier system for collection, it's pretty painful as it is right now.

As Undead go? It's 1 Per Danger. God help you if you're the only active spawn...

Issue Number Three: "Lack of Avenues."

What an odd thing to say, but it is one of them. If not the MOST frustrating situation I think I have faced with Undead. It's not just me, trust me, this has been a roaring issue for qutie some time. Being an Undead has some massive limitations on what we can do in the game. Can't learn Necromancy. Can't sell your soul. Can't learn faith either. You can't even attempt to become human again, because no god will be favorable for it!

From what I am told (so please take this part with a grain of salt, I am just the messenger) is that most times, when an Undead goes for something. They're often denied because they are... an Undead. This can range from Sigs, Story Arcs, Mechanics, etc. I've had people laugh at my idea of wanting my Undead to try and become just a normal human again, because- they said as follows "You're an Undead, you're not getting anything."

That is crushing to hear.

There's some odd disconnect with Undead, I'm not sure where it is or why it's there. Most of the time people get the response "Hey can I do XYZ?" The reply? "Go for it!" Whereas Undead? It's met with a quick "No." or "Don't get your hopes up." and "You're not gonna get xyz, don't even bother."

This is super, super, super discouraging. I'm not blaming ANYONE for this, I'm also not blaming any Undead who's simply given up because they have been given such a lack of Avenues to take. It's tough, this game is about writing together, but let's be honest. We all want to be that cool little Mary Sue in the heroes story. Or... perhaps you want to be a grand evil creation that tries to take on the world.

...Something about being an Undead... feels... Limiting. So swiftly to be told no, so quickly to be told: "Don't Bother."

I wish this wasn't the case. I really with all my heart wish it wasn't because I am having such an amazing time with my Undead.

Is there something wrong with Undead? Is there a reason so many are limited in what they do? I fully expect a reply from an Admin or Chance himself telling me that I am 100% wrong in this little section of my long-winded rant. I want to say this is maybe not the full truth but this is how it FEELS as playing an Undead character. It sucks! I want to be wrong, I want to be told I am so wrong and dumb.

But? It's clear there's an issue. There's not a lot of Undead. You'd think they'd be more popular.

I promise you there are more Demons currently in the game than there have ever been Undead.

Ending Remarks:

At this point I've been rambling about the very limited issues. It may not be the worst issues, but I am really begging for some kind of soft overhaul with the Necromancy and Undead situation. Because I know people want to enjoy playing the Undead, and being Necromancers. The issue is there is this endless cycle of of burn out, AFKing. Imagine you're an undead and your Necromancer goes afk? You become stuck at whatever stage you're at, HEAVEN Forbid you're a Skeleton. You're not gonna keep playing, you're not gonna keep doing anything for yourself. There's no Necromancer to help you.

The same thing applies for Undead. They are the source, the blood and life of the Necromancer getting stronger. It's supposed to be a Snowball effect, more Undead, More material, more material means more Undead. So on and so forth.

Part of me is very jealous of how everyone wants Demons reworked, and by god, they earned it right? I really want Undead to get the same treatment, I really want to see them get more love.

I encourage people who have/currently playing Undead/Necromancers to put their thoughts here.

I know this was a lot to read, but to those of you who have.

Thank you.

[Chance]

...And yeah? Burden is fucking worth it. It's so amazing and I am GLAD I got to this point.

But...

Now what?

There's nothing more after Champion. 

A gentle reminder that this is a roleplaying game.

You set your own goals and aspire towards them. The carrot on the stick only takes you so far; your role as a minion is the starting point, and you need to flesh things out beyond that, whatever that might be. It is a race background but it's not like you can't make plans and moves outside of the presented mechanics.

That said, I agree that Necromancy is lacking and could do with some TLC. I'm definitely interested in hearing people's suggestions and have some of my own that I might post in this thread later.

[Lammy]

One suggestion is after reaching champion, you become some sort of archetype of Champion:

Ghoul/Ghostly/etc

Something on those lines that I don't have much time to think of but enjoy contemplating; especially when it comes to moving upward (mechanically). Otherwise it's flavor and things that can become undone with apps.

[PastaTM]

...And yeah? Burden is fucking worth it. It's so amazing and I am GLAD I got to this point.

But...

Now what?

There's nothing more after Champion. 

A gentle reminder that this is a roleplaying game.

You set your own goals and aspire towards them. The carrot on the stick only takes you so far; your role as a minion is the starting point, and you need to flesh things out beyond that, whatever that might be.

That said, I agree that Necromancy is lacking and could do with some TLC. I'm definitely interested in hearing people's suggestions and have some of my own that I might post in this thread later.

By all means I 100% agree with what you are saying. I really do, I have plans way beyond Champion (which will be a ton of fun).

What most people have echoed is there are fewer restrictions, though I imagine you and a fair amount of others have ideas for this in mind.

• Not allowed to Learn Necromancy
  
• Not allowed to become a Witch 
  
• Not allowed to become Human/Alive
  
• Not allowed to Eat
  
• Not allowed to learn Faith
  
• Not allowed to Break away from their Necromancer (Though, why would you? You'd shoot yourself in the foot)
  
• And likely there's more I'm missing
  
  
  
• I don't wanna make this long-winded because- I wrote my thoughts on the overall thread. I am more than happy to work with others to come up with some TLC for Undead/Necromancy. We are the end of the day all come together to write up a story. Sometimes it feels like the Undead are running into walls.
  
  Thank you for taking the time to read this though, I look forward to seeing the replies and suggestions.

[Chance]

Not allowed to Learn Necromancy

Undead struggle to channel necromantic mana for self purposes because they're bound to their Necromancer, but it's not impossible. Just very difficult.

Not allowed to become a Witch 

True. Their soul is bound to their Necromancer and cannot be contracted.

Not allowed to become Human/Alive

True...? Maybe? It could certainly be a goal.

Not allowed to Eat

False. It just has no nutritional value.

Not allowed to learn Faith

True. Faith is based around the pantheon, and channels the lifestream. Undead are creatures of rot and decay, the anti-thesis of Faith.

Not allowed to Break away from their Necromancer (Though, why would you? You'd shoot yourself in the foot)

False.



Restrictions do come with the territory, but it seems like a lot of this is sort of putting yourself into a box based on what you've heard. Which is often misinformation or irrelevant when it comes to a good story. So hopefully that clears it up somewhat.

There are restrictions of course because, well, they're Undead. Just like Demons have theirs, and so on. Making them more mechanically interesting isn't really relevant to said restrictions.

[mat13295]

Part of the misinformation is due to old lore from previous games and people just taking it as gospel since it's not written down that things have changed. Certified wiki moment.

[VibeEntertainment]

I like the idea of things being hard for an Undead. It allows us to find different avenues going towards anything other chars would get far easier. However, sadly due to the time and possibility of dying before you reach such a point or goals is a bit rough. Maybe even demotivating for some.

Unsure what new things could come into play for them but would be nice to see/hear what others come up with.

My own suggestion:

Instead of fighting for your life non-stop and essentially "Uber-Running-It" to death or glory. Allow another path to get undeath for Undead. A ritual maybe? Like how Witches can just get essence every year without having to risk their lives on end...

[Spiffspoff]

I personally think a lot of the perceived restrictions come from when Morgwynn was around, since I don't think there's been a more iconic undead in the lifespan of E4 at least from my opinion.

As I recall, she was denied the ability to break away from her Necromancer, but I have no real context to this. Signature -wise we did have one of Wra'gul's undead (I forget the name) who managed to get Wildcard. But that's also the only undead I ever heard who had a unique to begin with.

I've been curious about playing undead for a while myself, but that's mostly because they are, no matter how much we want to tell ourselves otherwise, essentially designed to throw hands, and not really to create any deep story on their own.

I think the fatal flaw of them is exactly that-- they're given one obvious route to reach their destination, and the other routes tend to be hidden behind a lot of maybes, and potentiallys. So they default to throwing hands to reach their goals. That's not bad for someone that thrives in that environment, but it leaves much to be desired narratively.

So my suggestion is to give them a clearly defined alternative to pvp-- the undead. Not the Necromancer. Something like a certain amount of undeath per x amount of activity. So that by the time they reach rpl 220 they can become champions without fighting once, or something similar.

Or maybe the undead can infect coops, and cow pens for undeath. Tint the animals green, halve the production rate, and give medics the ability to cure them again.

Just my two cents.

[GSM]

I’ll give a suggestion, why not:

One of the things that undead should probably have is some way to keep a presence after being beaten down and getting back up again and again.

Maybe a necromancer/the undead themselves can apply nyctorre or use undeath on an arcanium perm kit to make an undead-only completely-heal-a-treated-perm. Now they have more Vit than other people, and hey, an undead is just a pile of flesh or bone or whatever, just give it some new better ones and let them ball out again.

Maybe a bandaid for a gunshot wound, idk. It just came to me in the moment.

[Powerjake]

as an avid necromancer, I've had many undead quit who just got bored. But undead quitting and leaving is something I'm getting used to, and I shouldn't complain about it as much as I do.



My biggest suggestion is allow undead to be able to heal temps with elixers, or at least have reduced temp times. It would make it a lot easier for them to farm undead for their masters. And it would make sense, you know undead. Fast regeneration? idk. I know people will say they want us to be medics to help with that. But I uhh am not one and I am going to work on it.