[Chance]

Over the years I've noticed that the community has become more PvP focused, in the sense that many players will strive to be as performant as possible. This is fair and fine, it's human nature to want to be good, and losing repeatedly sucks. This is partly because the game has grown in ways that allow players to adapt and experiment easier: respec potions (amnesia/rebirth), previewing spells, more communication and discussion that allows for advice and sharing knowledge, etc etc.

The downside of this is that it's more competitive as a result, and you have to 'try harder' if you want to enjoy some Ws. Odds are you aren't going to be fighting the happy-go-lucky roleplayer who's just looking for a good time and picked lightning magic because it sounded cool, but someone with 300+ restrained battles and in-depth knowledge of the game. This means, if you want to be average, or better than average, you probably need to put in the same amount of effort OOCly. 

Is this bad? Maybe not. A lot of people enjoy the combat. We have 12+ years of development behind it. Trying new builds, experimenting with different things, seeing your character grow and get stronger, it can all hit those dopamine spots. That said, I'm not sure if it's good for roleplaying overall, and maybe makes things a bit more predictable where upsets are rarer and such. Obviously we're working on our turnbased combat system which I feel will be better for storytelling as well as general character personalization, but this is separate from that entirely, aside from some lessons learned.

So what I'm suggesting is:

• Limit Rebirth Potions to a single use. Often the reason why someone doesn't stick with their original magic is because they see what they think might be a stronger combination. This feeds that rabbit hole of competitiveness and a culture of metabuilding. Stick to your choices, see them out until the end (unless ofc you're the monthly newbie that bought every attunement or something similar). Only grant respec requests if the development is genuinely impactful and sincere.
  
• Add more rewards for long-term characters. The longevity reward is a good start there, but reaching 230 is quite rare. What I'm thinking is some element passives for themed characters: If you're a bard with sound magic, as a common example, or even something more gimmicky like an electric guitarist in a band that uses lightning magic. Basically if a character is really playing up their magic in exciting, colorful ways that makes them stand out, and they've been around for a while. There's countless themes to explore but not a whole lot of incentive to do so.
  

Any thoughts / suggestions are welcome. Mostly this is post-gym/shower thoughts.

[DragonDarklyDreaming]

Hmm. I can agree with the rebirth potion bit! I don't think it's a huge deal, personally. Usually the only reason I've ever wanted to do a rebirth potion is if I was trying something a bit more experimental and then finally go 'Yeah this isn't working at all'. I don't do so much a full reset so much as replace one of the trees of my build with either something else from the same subtree, or something eles that 'fits'.

I -love- the element passive for themed characters idea! I always, always, try and make my character with a theme. From Tristinia forwards, each has generally had 'an idea' with their creation, and I think this is a great way to encourage this! In general, rewarding players for investing heavily into a character is a good thing.

I have a possible suggestion though regarding rebirths. Something in-between rebirths and mana amnesias... A way to allow for limited respeccing within the same tree. Like... Swapping from Magma to Explosion, or the like. If one part of the 'theming' you're going for just isn't working out, but you think you can make it work with a different part, I think that should be less limited than a full respec. (Then again, maybe that can just be slightly more relaxed requirements on the apps)

[Lammy]

I would get rid of Rebirth potions and return back to applying to get out of them with sincere development. I would also limit Mana Amnesias as well to a lower limit, but offer a free one if they earned a new tree or whatever -- same with build redos, so long as they stick to what they have.

I would also get rid of the 230 RPL incentives because they don't add anything and many people would get this by just logging on every day at their own pace. Instead, reward people with their creativity as they grow and complete their characters with small rewards to keep going. A little dopamine kick every now and then keeps them actively going.

[GSM]

No notes. Rebirths to me are something I only interacted with once because I made a mistake on Na’Ria. Builds shouldn’t shift too much once your character gets going, and major respecs should only be through apps (my favorite and only instance of this being Na’Ria dropping Absorption as per her approval with Divine Magic, flavored as the void within her being finally filled).

My only concern is that this would be somewhat arbitrary to track and dole out, and possibly add to the stat bloat of the game that I’ve noticed especially recently.

Also, general PSA for everyone else. Use /commend. Make someone’s day. 

[Apollo Densin]

I have always said  that the biggest problem with Eternia is the combat focus. Though this also tends to be more of an OOC attitude of might makes right. While there have been numerous exceptions. If you tend to be on the weaker side in verbing you tend to be regulated to non leadership positions and unable to help out in events for the most part. One battle chad can simply make a new character and get to 200 and still walk all over a 230 plus with uniques if you somewhat suck at the twitch combat. Not to mention if you have a somewhat fluffy build. We have seen this same thing happen time and again. 

But onto the meat of the thread. I am unsure if the rebirth potion nerfing will have the proper effect, or at least to the degree you are wanting. Though it would prevent people from trying to see a new meta build and trying to switch.

Elemental passives are pretty good suggestion as well. I can see them getting super OP though in that regard as you make a fluffy battle chad character now you have more Elemental pow.

Though at end of day, do not see this as controversial suggestion. I can think of a few that would get me downvoted to hell and back/get called an idiot.

[Tsaritsa]

Introduce a cooldown to Mana Amnesia. The limit isn't enough. Have it so once used, it goes on a CD for X time. Maybe an IC year, maybe half an IC year... Who knows. It shouldn't be something you can spam before an important fight/raid/war to find the exact build you want to use for that particular time.

[Lung]

My suggestion? if people like combat that much, and are obsseded with improve and get more wins, a creation of a ranked mode, where they can fight all they want with being able to roleplay the battles like a arena for example could help that. Lets say a fix place on map (probaly centered) where people go to fight, in all ways all kinds, where you cant be capped, only permed and works a bit outside of lore and roleplay, (a real tool for them vent their will to verb), so they couldnt use it for dev, only that in lore that place is was used to fights 

(smt like hollow knight god phanteons destroyed but functional in a dream way.) The arena and world would work different, so you couldnt use battles there as fuel for more dangrs or etc.

They would waste all their energy on there and on the world, they could focus more on roleplay and etc, like leave the tryhard for the ranked, and the world more a conflict but, where everyone gains by deving themselves other than just winning and maximizing efficiency in powerful builds and combinations.

Rewards for long term characters? hell yeah, only thing i got from keep straight to unarmed was being ignored on piers, so im totally favor of it.

[Nubius Maximus]

I have been a staunch hater of Rebirth Pots since their addition even if I'm not very vocal about it.

I hate Rebirth Pots because they of the the ability to change one's entire kit so long as they are not above the certain RPL. This means that whenever a major change happens, chances are a lot of people will revamp their entire build. The master of energy based magics will become a master biomancer at the drop of a hat because "insert x here" changes happened to his build or because he got beaten (badly enough) by one and doesn't want to lose anymore. They encourage a certain problematic behaviour.

Though as chance said, the newbie that just ended up making a frankenstein of their purchase should be able to get their build refunded.

Another big problem I've realized is that people will oocly create a build and then play a character. Now, this isn't particularly bad persay because those people can still make great characters but the problem arises because they meta build to the point of it not making sense icly for their character sometimes. 

Not everyone who ends up strong using a certain kind of build is someone that metabuilt, either - a prime example of that recently being Mikoto who wanted to be a ninja/assassin type of character and thus pursued unarmed shadow and occult. However, that then encouraged a surge of people doing the same thing which just made a whole mess of the trees later when they got nerfed/redone and ect.

Unlike others however, Mikoto firmly remained in his chosen trees as an established character whereas some have swiftly changed their builds following those changes. (Note, this isn't an attack or anything on anyone but I just used it to prove a point.)

Now, I can't say I haven't done the "hm, this looks cool so I want to do it" before making a character myself, but I mostly limited it to things like "hey, I want to make a paladin" so I combine holy and armed but only holy and armed, and energy shield because it fit with the aesthetic and protective role. There was no light, because it didn't fit the aesthetic of a holy warrior to me, especially given that its not so much a control over something 'holy' but of colors even though in the past, lightspeed not being a master made it extremely strong for almost any build but especially armed and the rest of the light tree was also pretty good.

If someone wants to redo their entire trees they should app for it. This has always been my opinion about that.

Mana Amnesia's are fine, because sometimes certain changes will cripple a spell that you've been using but for as long as you're remaining within those trees, shuffling spells around is fine, especially because usually, those that reach a certain age and RPL within those trees should be considered masters of them. (An example being dropping one armed spell for a new within the tree.) However, when it got to such a that a character will pop one after every fight, they needed to become limited. Not everyone is like this, of course and the current cap of 100 is more than enough unless you're actively trying to make a metabuild.

[bonafidenubbin]

I don't think rebirths/Amnesias are really the problem; most of the people who are truly deadly don't seem to need them, they're getting by on sheer cracked skill. (Which is not pejorative to them, I take my hat off in envy). It's the people who AREN'T "naturally" top-tier but are trying to compete at the highest level who need to spar a ton, test a ton of builds, etc, so I think that element of this change wouldn't necessarily contribute to solving the issue.

That said I agree wholeheartedly there IS an issue, and I think the element passives idea is a really nice one from every perspective - both to help a little with this and simply because it's awesome.

Personally, though, I suspect the issue is more on the incentives end.

Competency at PVP is the absolute backbone of success in Meranthe.

Now, sure, you can manage plenty of cool things that don't touch combat... up until the point you want to engage in anything where characters disagree on the world stage. If you have any goal that involves something contentious, the way to achieve it is to win fights. Even if you're apping for abilities - while a losing ratio may help your applications, sigs also require achievements, and achievements require winning. (At the very least, not losing so often that you die before anything gets done.) Not to mention the fact that the default setting for fights, Danger 1, means you have a 1 in 6 chance of being put in a scenario where you can simply die if you lose. And this applies even to people trying to do non-combatant things; when the game is full of roving antags, going out to simply forage for ingredients or mine ore is a huge risk.

What all of this amounts to...

You end up with a rich-get-richer scenario, where individuals who are highly skilled at combat are comfortable going out and taking risks on a regular basis, accruing achievements that allow them to app for signatures to become even stronger (while still taking on enough fights where they're at numerical disadvantages to have some prominent losses). The presence of these powerful characters with high-skill players creates strong pressure on the "mid-tier" players, especially those who struggle to crack the app system and unlock sigs that would close some of the numerical gaps; these players push themselves hard to crack into the top echelon and become very performance-focused because it's their only chance to achieve any kind of victory, or keep their character alive. And below those tiers you end up with a vast group of players who are essentially priced out of the market, knowing they won't end up at a competitive level, so they try their best to avoid fighting at all.

Now, mind, I am ABSOLUTELY not blaming anybody here on an individual level. Everybody is just pursuing their own fun, and those high-skill players I refer to have worked hard to put in the time and effort to become good at this game. And antags create much-needed conflict and interest where things could otherwise lead to stagnation.

What I am pointing at is the systems. Primarily the nature of combat in particular - high-damage skills with heavy CC abilities allowing for deadly combos makes skill THE determinant of victory. I am Very Bad at fighting, but I'm playing a character who has very good stats atop a solid if not A-tier meta build - and I still nearly lost a fight the other day to a demon literally 40 RPL below me.

In an environment like this, where people are so heavily incentivized to win fights, it is inevitable that the game will become performance-obsessed.

Now, my suggestions for fixing this would probably be extremely unpopular but I'm going to say them anyway in case they spur thought:

1) Normalize the signature system. Signatures and the like with combat use should be only a small percentage better than existing public spells, with the main benefit being in fluff/RP usage. Put hard limits on the amount of coded benefits a person can accrue from signatures to stop things like insane AP stacking and root out things like damage conversion stances which allow for massive benefits under the table.

2) Standardize the app system. Design clearer rubrics for how one earns signatures for greater consistency between players. Decide once and for all how sigs should be awarded (to reward achievement? to allow weaker people who are trying to keep up? to fit IC/narrative? to enable plotlines?)

3) Consider removing/reducing a lot of CC from the game, especially roots and stuns. Yeah, I expect to get shouted out of the room for this one, but the existence of absolutely devastating combos is a huge part of what makes combat so lethally skill-based. A small advantage in ability to hit and dodge translates into a huge advantage if you're also able to lean on tools like this. Would this make combat more boring? Maybe. Would it level the playing field? Absolutely.

3) Revamp injury code. While the actual numerical penalties of a -10 perm aren't high, the morale impact can be absolutely devastating, especially for newer characters getting permed early on in fights. The suggestion put forth a while back about changing perms to basically long-standing but not PERMANENT injuries would I think be absolutely fantastic for reducing some of the perceived pressure/stakes of combat. Temps can be made to last longer and have stronger effects so combat isn't toothless, though.

4) Rethink the entire concept of cap rolls. Y'all, I cannot tell you how I stared when I found out you just roll a d6 to decide if your character gets away scott free after losing a fight or if they are put entirely in their enemy's power with no ability to do anything but, y'know, die. Putting character survival on RNG is absolutely wild. Now I will freely admit this is a really hard one to figure out. Maybe the solution is more granular terms/settings for combat beyond the big 'Aggro/Dangerous/Deadly', so people can choose if they're fighting to cap, fighting to injure, etc. Maybe the solution is policy setting the default to Dangerous 0 and requiring build-up before cap/killing as in the fated rival rules. Maybe the solution is something else entirely. But the high risk of death ensuing from even encountering a random antag in the woods is ABSOLUTELY one of the major contributors to an environment of PVP competitiveness.

There are a lot of small things that could be done to tweak the game environment, and the passives idea is a lot of fun. But ultimately, so long as PVP is the arbiter of success and survival, you will see players grow increasingly competitive until you end up with the current environment: one where the people who've developed the best skills can run the board, and everyone else has to try-hard in order to see their stories have a chance at coming to fruition.

...This turned into an essay. Yikes. THANKS FOR READING.

[Artorias]

On my first character I really wanted to stick to the theme that Seryn had, he was entirely within the water tree. I barely sparred on him, I'd get really anxious because I lost a lot in the beginning. I wasn't really sure what I was doing, certain combos really just destroyed my confidence and enthusiasm. As a fresh new player with zero knowledge on the other trees, it was rather scary for me. At some point I began to buckle up and accept I needed to get involved in PvP, I did maybe a hundred spars and I got a little experience. I was then cap killed on my first danger and I got into a very bad attitude.

When I made Renfae I told myself I wasn't going to die as easily, I set myself a goal to have a thousand spars under my belt. Experiencing the trees and their combinations has been a blast, but clearly there is a problem. I went in with a build and theme, I've followed them all through and now I'm okay at verbing. My thrill for RPing however has diminished greatly, when I look at the game I see almost everything is decided by whoever can swing the hardest. Quite a lot of the people that do swing the hardest, do so because they've been given relatively powerful advantages over others.

Needless rant on balance / the giving of ECesque upgrades to players below

Whether that advantage be through a weapon with over 75 power + elemental bonuses, or signatures that are wildly more powerful than they have any right to be. I understand that sometimes it is necessary and a lot of times it has been earned, but the standard in place creates EC's ran by Players. Quite a lot of people don't want to interact, when they know that they legitimately can't win unless they get the same types of rewards or become good enough that the advantages matter little.

I'm perhaps rambling but I've kept the same build except for a reshuffle of certain abilities, removing a spell or two from fire to place them into time or armed.

I think the problem is kind of systemic and while I agree that limiting rebirth potential is great, I don't think it will solve the overarching problems. It was mentioned once before in the council chat. "a level 230 3-sig char"

While these are just my thoughts, if you yourself can see the issue in a player character having too much power my question would be; is there any plan on limiting the amount of power you are giving players? Quite a lot of these meta-builds could be traced back to the fact that some individuals just can't be beat by normal means, sure they've earned a reward and put effort in... But in a Roleplaying game, does that reward have to be even more literal power for their character?

Some players are lucky enough to get perhaps 5 power on their weapon, others see three or four times that and possibly even more.

No more rant

I think rewarding builds that are thematic is a good idea, people that actually Roleplay their magics for things they're doing. Whether you're using it in artificing, healing or any number of other things related to personal dev. A good example of one of those players in my own experience is Loramelian, they have consistently used their magic trees in Roleplay from the first moment I met them. 

My suggestion might be wild but considering Artificing and Alchemy aren't exactly combat related, remove the cost to go into them entirely. I think it'd give a lot of players more rp opportunities without having to worry about their builds. I look at them both and shrug, because that five or ten rpp could be the difference between having enough for a sig on an expensive build or not, and that isn't how I should view RPP/Signatures/Crafting/Roleplaying in general as it is a bad mindset. Being able to craft doesn't really give you a huge advantage, but it does open up more RP opportunities.