[Dreamspeaker]

It's that time when Bog effort posts.

But before we get into it, keep in mind that this is spoken largely from conversations had with people & my own observations/ situations that were provided. I lack full tools to observe everything and everywhere, so something might be off - this, however, seems to be the general consensus of playerbase.

Let's get started.

I will cover several points in here that largely correspond to antagonist-oriented races, as well as relate them to existing issues. They will be posted in problem-solution format.


• Witches

The first pre-ts antagonist class that was introduced. Before, we couldn't really sustain having a witch among us at all - the Occultism is easily found and whatnot, so we had separate settlement for it. However, they were never meant to be an 'open' antagonist, but instead let somebody else do the heavy lifting while they perform shady business from the back. That was, supposedly, the plan for post-ts and for a while it worked.

For a while.

Let's cover hexes.

Problem: the issue seems to be that hardly anybody roleplays hex correctly - but there is no defined way to roleplay it correct, to begin with. People go "why did I suddenly do this", then point fingers, or even downright resist (i.e "I'm feeling like attacking this person, but I won't, because they're relevant to be/ because I was told otherwise/ because I like them/ etc"). In other words, if person really wants to make sure the hex doesn't affect them, they will find a way - or they will find a way to make you pay for it.

Solution: define stricter how hex is roleplayed, set exact limits to what you're allowed to do (whether you can resist it, how and why if yes). Unfortunately, saying that "it's a natural sensation" hasn't really done much, if anything at all - witches tend to be easily discovered after hex and people tend to "resist" it. Also, up the effect back to 3 OOC hours, because the moment it wears out within 1 OOC hour, people do the 180 in their roleplay.

At the very least, witches can usually infiltrate places, but they're often faced with a lot of aforementioned problems regardless.

No other abilities are problematic. Hex seems to be the biggest bane and blessing to witches all the same, which often leads to their premature exposure and them being forced back. Which leads me to second point...

• Mimics/ Demons

Weren't they supposed to be helpers to witches, or at least allies of the dark?

You can apply for witchcraft, make up whatever backstory to develop for it - but you cannot apply to be Demon/ Mimic (no matter whether the application is judged harsh, or there are slot limits), which effectively cuts off witches from having that "hefty lifting force" that was mentioned earlier. There are also at least several other factors to speak about.

Problem: as mentioned above, you cannot apply for either. The only way to obtain one is to rebirth as one - but that's too slow. This is very, very obvious with how things are right now, because there are almost no antagonist-oriented characters*. 

* - personal problems, civil wars and political disputes don't count, as these come and go.

Seeing that a huge wave of children spawned in Nysea, some in Myllenoris, some in Osrona, some in Theria or Alabastre, it's rather obvious that we'll have to keep waiting until we get another wave of any antagonist related characters.

And waiting.
And waiting...
And waiting...

Except it's not going to happen. It's very low chance that anybody is going to rebirth into Mimic or Demon, especially under current premise of game - you're asking people to sacrifice their entire character, and relying on somebody dying (or several characters dying) is just... well, not reliable. Even if they do? They're likely to be ganked/ grimed and generally stomped out.

While at it, I should also bring up the fact that Demons/ Mimics are generally either metagamed (in case of mimics), or harshly grimed (in case of demons). While I personally avoid harassing baby demons or mimics, despite having full IC of doing so, usually they're already dead before I even hear of them becoming anybody at all. 

Solution: allow role applications for mimics/ demons - at least, until there's more backup to the side of the dark. While ideally you could apply for any race in general, we're currently focused on the issues with antagonist-oriented characters. This would, at the very least, open up opportunity for more characters that support cast of antagonistic side. 

However, we already had bad experience of flood of demons coming in. As result, either slots must be limited, or the applications should be judged harsher (depending on amount of demons currently). On top of that, they should never be given any starter bonus - such as what we experienced pre-TS. This should help balance out the tides without clearly overbuffing the antagonist side that is already a dead horse being beaten further anyway.

I'm unsure what to do about people allegedly roaming Dreadwoods with invisibility potions, however, or people generally looking to grime low RPL demons. I personally witnessed it - and it's honestly horrible. The amount of clout chasers makes me go :unamused: very often, and other than literally updating rules about it, I don't know what you can do - since clearly mentality of community is focused about stomping them out before they have any chance to flourish.


TLDR:

• Define hexes better/ increase to 3 OOC hours. Too many people find out easily or even roleplay resisting it/ wait for it to run out (whether intentionally or not).
• Allow applications for mimics/ demons. Waiting on people dying will set us up for a minimum of another 10-15 IC years before antag side flourishes (if at all).
• Do something about the grime. Update rules, or give a form of protection to very low tier antagonists (but not any higher, only for babies).
• Control the flow of anything that antagonists receive. They deserve more backup - but we don't want pre-TS demon flood experience.



This was made after speaking to a lot of people across community on both antagonist side and those that oppose them. The general consensus I often hear is that antagonists are stomped into dirt and current game climate is very comfortable, with very little to challenge status quo.

While political games can certainly shift things around, it only lasts for so long. Besides, wouldn't it be more fun to throw in antags for more chaos even if major conflict happens, anyway?

Once again, keep in mind this is suggestion based on my own observations & me talking to other people. If I missed something/ not aware of something - it is what it is. 

[Milly]

I 100% agree to up the timer of Hex to 3 hours. Because typically when people get hexed, they effort post and big post and that can take several minutes for everyone involved to RP - and by the time they get done, the hex has expired.

I think allowing people to apply to be mimics/demons would be smart. Just don't sit there and accept every tom dick and harry ala pre-ts. Look at the current amount of Demons and go, "okay [x] number more is reasonable".

Grime gotta go, bro.

[Hoovyking]

please, please change the cap ruling in the dreadwoods to an automatic cap 0 for antag races.

I don't want to wake up, try to RP with a younger demon only to have 28 coalition knights decloak and throw cap 1s at me until I die

pain. all my antags know pain.

[Logan]

Allow lower level Demons to be given revives if they're slain in battle / on cap. Within reason, of course. If they're running into the middle of settlements then that's on them. But losing a 220 RPL rebirth because you got unlucky and rolled a 1 is a really shitty feeling. Especially when you were never even able to reach a decently high RPL in the first place.

[Jumpy]

I think people should be judged harsher on pointing fingers whenever they get hexed. I think no matter the time limit on a hex people shouldn't be allowed to 180 mid-scene. It should last until the end of the scene even if the boost ends. I also think that people roleplay hex badly, like, really badly. They're so scared of taking actions when they get hexed and living with the consequences of such. People get so uptight and afraid to just smile, say "gg" to the witch that hexed them with great timing and roll with it.

I'd point fingers but the culprits already do that enough.

I think the fix is allowing people to either:
a) know they were hexed X time after a scene would bring more honesty during the scene, seeing as you could go "i was hexed!" after, as well as being an element of pretending to be hexed.
b) not metagame in any capacity or describe how they were hexed and harshly enforce the very rules that are mentioned when you do get hexed.

either you know it or it's actually enforced that you don't.

I think the admin team is already leaning on the latter. It just needs to be harsher.

P.S.: please if you're a witch stop telling me about it. it makes any doubt I may have reasonably metagame and any attempt at not metagaming feel like a billion hoops having to be jumped through.

[rea]

im going to make a really spicy take here

up hex to last a year, complete control or else the character dies, witch can only do it once a year

this forces more impact and makes hexes have to be chosen better and not wasted. i was hexed to "get mad at the zealotry of the church" in a scene where i was actively mad about the zealotry of the church f.ex

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i see that my take is significantly spicy and people want to continue witches hexblasting hexes that have no weight gg

[Milly]

Hexing doesn't enable you to take control of a character.
It just looks at pre-established emotions (i.e: anger, or sad, or fear) - and preys upon it and amps it up so you're more liable to suggestions (which is what a hex is).
Also you can 100% continue to RP a hex after the mechanic of it ends. In fact, you should in theory continue to RP such until the scene is over.

I don't know why people don't.

[Simple]

While witches are great on paper, I honestly do not believe that they can thrive in the current environment of the game on both an IC and OOC level. I give props to those who are willing to tackle the challenge, but with how fast people are able to communicate a lot of times information is spread quite easily. I'm not accusing anyone in particular, but stating in general that metagame does in fact happen in these sort of cases, and not something I condone at all whatsoever.

With that said, I believe that hexes in general are a bit tricky to pull off correctly. I've seen cases where people who would otherwise never act a certain way are hexed and told to go against their already established IC. I think that warrants enough suspicion. If Mother Theresa went from saving needy children one moment to selling them off for profit the next people would raise eyebrows. I also think we need to consider how many times someone can be hexed before they begin to notice differences. If one character is consistently getting hexed and through similar means/methods I personally believe at some point they should be able to feel SOMETHING is off.

But yes, there are consistently problems where certain witches are exposed OOC and then we enter a very... awkward phase where everyone else surrounding them is tip-toeing on a minefield because you don't want to be the one to be accused of metagame. It sucks, it isn't fun, and you never know when you're being influenced by metagame or not. But that ties all back into the initial point. Some witches are just plain obvious in how they conduct themselves, as well as tell a few people and it spirals out of control from there. But I get it... Being a witch is super cool and I'd feel compelled to share too, it's just hard to navigate around.

I'm indifferent when it comes to mimic/demons apps though. I think there'd need to be some serious quality standards set in place/not approving too many definitely.

[rea]

i meant control more in the way of not being able to resist with oh no...!!! but i dont want to attack.....!!! yeehaw i am a hero ... things, if a witch is going to use something that puts them in danger it should have a better net gain and be longer lasting

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that was yeehaw not yeehaw why did autocorrect

[Dreamspeaker]

While witches are great on paper, I honestly do not believe that they can thrive in the current environment of the game on both an IC and OOC level. I give props to those who are willing to tackle the challenge, but with how fast people are able to communicate a lot of times information is spread quite easily. I'm not accusing anyone in particular, but stating in general that metagame does in fact happen in these sort of cases, and not something I condone at all whatsoever.

With that said, I believe that hexes in general are a bit tricky to pull off correctly. I've seen cases where people who would otherwise never act a certain way are hexed and told to go against their already established IC. I think that warrants enough suspicion. If Mother Theresa went from saving needy children one moment to selling them off for profit the next people would raise eyebrows. I also think we need to consider how many times someone can be hexed before they begin to notice differences. If one character is consistently getting hexed and through similar means/methods I personally believe at some point they should be able to feel SOMETHING is off.

But yes, there are consistently problems where certain witches are exposed OOC and then we enter a very... awkward phase where everyone else surrounding them is tip-toeing on a minefield because you don't want to be the one to be accused of metagame. It sucks, it isn't fun, and you never know when you're being influenced by metagame or not. But that ties all back into the initial point. Some witches are just plain obvious in how they conduct themselves, as well as tell a few people and it spirals out of control from there. But I get it... Being a witch is super cool and I'd feel compelled to share too, it's just hard to navigate around.

I'm indifferent when it comes to mimic/demons apps though. I think there'd need to be some serious quality standards set in place/not approving too many definitely.

I agree with this as well, as stated in initial post.

There ought to be something done about witches and the way they get metagamed/ their hex works (as summarized in initial post), and preferably mimic/ demon apps opened with certain limitations (either harsher judgment or limited slots).

We don't want pre-TS flood of demons, that was awful. As it stands, however, antagonist side is a dead horse and some players just keep beating it.





Or I guess we can just keep it dead, but current game environment too comfortable.