[Chance]

I'd say these posts of 'combat is how you beat the other person up so getting good is important', 'there's a lot of conflict' and 'I have to defend myself or be defended if someone comes at me' is yeah obvious and miss the heart of the suggestion somewhat. If you don't want to be involved in these interactions then don't be the guy punching the other in the face, or vice versa. There are many plots outside of this to explore and to be involved in, or to start up yourself, but this IS a combat oriented game.

That said, there's no real solution or drastic, sure improvement to make to my claim, or rather it's an attempt to find an answer to a non-problem perhaps. I don't think limiting Rebirth Potions to 1 will ultimately change much in the long-term, but could be done anyway. I also need need to consider what I'm even asking in the first place because as easy as it is to disagree with some points and go back and forth, the subject and potential perspectives is incredibly vague and will naturally be varied. There are lots of fair suggestions and points of relevance but it's as scattered as my thoughts are right now and doesn't reach the core of it...

The soul of combat and its identity. Milly's suggestion of removing restrained's does, not that it would lead to Good Things. But it makes me nostalgic for a simpler time... ten years ago, where Discord didn't exist, and you couldn't 'spar' unless it was in a close-spaced, tiny arena that was more of a public hangout spot. The combat system just came second to actual roleplaying, there was far less need for 'getting good' and 'balance', and unpredictable things occurred because of this. 

Don't get me wrong. It was janky and barebones, the staff, community, policy, and overall the storytelling (as well as frequency of it) is better than it was back in the day. Everything is better. But it was purer in that naïve, easy going way. Less predictable, less OOC noise, less pressure. Difficult to put into words. You might have experienced something similar when you first started roleplaying, or not.

I think... how it is now is fine. As good as it'll get, even. Maybe because I've spent a lot of time considering and designing the turn-based system it's making me long for more personalization and a higher degree of roleplay focus that this new setup allows for more easily, but trying to achieve something similar in our established gameplay/culture is difficult. I'm also overly excited for this in general so it's making it more difficult for me to appreciate current PvP as it is, when I'm spending time ruminating on the potential of the alternative. The truth is I probably want to think and speak about that more as it's less of a dead end for me creatively, hmm...

[DragonDarklyDreaming]

I don't agree that 'there are many plots outside of this to explore and to be involved in or to start up yourself', right now. That's often true, but things have gotten to the point where some settlements are getting attacked directly, and a bunch of people are getting attacked whilst doing questing. You can, of course, choose not to do quests. You can give up that source of income... But you'll lack coins, which means you won't be able to buy things, pay for rent, etc. And even -if- you fully managed to distance yourself from that need?

Your friends will get hurt. They'll come back: "Holy shit a demon just ripped my arm off, we need to get me treated." One day a friend just... Won't show up. You'll get a letter saying if you want to see them again, then to pay up. No matter where you go, what faction you're a part of? This conflict will find you.

Actually, great example is today's war: Nylfheim. They were just minding their own business, doing their own thing, trying not to get involved with anything and just RP. And they were attacked. If I were someone who was trying to get as far from the current conflicts as possible to do my own thing and focus on other plots? That's where I would have gone. So... Yeah, one way or another, whether we like it or not, any character needs to be ready to respond to the conflict.

And! The turn-based system unironically will help by MILES. It will be so much more accessible! It'll mean you don't have to spend hours sparring to practice. You don't have to spend hours crafting meta builds, discussing everything. You -can- be a more flavorful character and just see how things go. You can even more easily shit-talk, or roleplay out being a voice caster, things like that!

I am so very hype for turn-based mode. But until it's here... This is unfortunately what we're going to have to deal with.

[Malek]

This is a negative outlook from my end (shocker), but it's less that "back when information about combat, sparring, and opportunities to fix your build weren't as common, things were a lot more easygoing" and more "you had 10% of the playerbase in discords that gave build advice and 90% of the players struggling and wondering if it's just a matter of lucking into a good build, or skill, or if it really is all exclusively sig diff".

Imo, that's how it was in E3. The underlying problem is that fotm and certain meta-builds/strongest picks always last way too long. The only difference is that in the past, most players didn't know what to attribute it to so it was quieter. 

You still had players generally being unable to compete until they were taught the ins and outs by someone that's already dominating. You just had less players that knew that path existed for them. 

Imo, it's just a matter of the community taking note that there's players and characters they know they'll never compete with unless they do the same things they do. The only alternative is to go back to when most players generally don't actually matter in the world stage until someone that repeatedly takes center stage holds their hand, but being more oblivious.

It's like you said though, things are generally better now. Imo, the one change that could actually be acted on is improving the balance cycle. If you want things less predictable and mathed out, the picks that spike in popularity and win rate just need to be quickly nerfed so players stop relying on them and the players on the receiving end don't have time to look at them and go "Okay, this is obviously what's good right now" and consider adjusting to it. Even if we still have those periods where there are obviously stronger builds, if players expect "If this keeps dominating anyways it's going to get toned down in no time" then you run into less of that fotm fever everyone gets into both in actual building and discussions.

No other way around it, I think.

EDIT: Also, heavy disagree on there being more plots to involve yourself with but everyone probably knows that. I know too many non-combat players that have just dropped off entirely during this arc, or stick to settlements and complain about their plots not progressing. I'm not playing fauste right now because there is no plot or project for me to engage in besides building uniques for people.

If you want a complaint that doesn't tie back to the current arc, one big reason for this is that by simplifying the apps, flavor apps seem a lot more dead. You only have 'Wonders' as a location to app for something that like, summons a bunch of spirits or creates a plague or whatever.

And wonders are so unbelievably not worth it right now. In my experience and the experience of others, that's at least a month wait before you get a single view for some reason. I had a wonder app take 2 months without getting looked at before it was denied (the denial was fair, but the two month wait before it was even seen is a bit inexplicable to me). I know of another player that I think was over a 1 month wait on their wonder app and died waiting on it.

Back in the day, I had a lil sparkle in my eye because of the app system and I wrote who knows how much in that non-combat guide because the prospect excited me. Now, I don't think I have it in me to bother with apping for something like Law Magic again. Despite being a spirit summoner as fauste, actually /summoning/ spirits, whether it's getting black circle summoning as fluff or getting an app in to open an emporium for ANYTHING is way too much of a hassle for me. I know a third very dedicated player that's been working on her wonder for months quit before apping because of the current arc, and I'm sure the fact that another wonder app she has out has been several weeks without views doesn't help.

It's just not the case that there's these other deep avenues for plot that don't involve combat, there's small talk.

If you'd like to fix this without touching the game's PVP focus or shifting perspectives, then fix the wonder issue. Reopen the 'Applications' subforum, but make it clear you don't app for sigs there, it's just for lore/gameplay relevant projects that don't meet the criteria to be considered a wonder. Give players something to do through roleplay except buff other people's stats, imo.

[Chance]

...

I didn't say that conflict doesn't exist and it isn't something present in world; I mean, obviously it does, otherwise it would be rather uneventful place. But the idea that you will be attacked if you leave your settlement and you have to be an active combatant is just wrong. Unless you're an active participant, nobody is going to be running up to say.. Nera or Friday and asking to D3 them. And if they do, A/D0 is always an option.

I think trying to turn this into a negative and exaggerating it as a problem is frankly odd. For most people this isn't even an issue to begin with, since it leads to a little unexpected spice and adventure, regardless of their usual preferences.

You don't need to agree with the sentiment. The fact is there are characters doing this daily is my point. It's simply 'you can actively run a tavern, start a newspaper, be an idol, a Camino Fan Club, be a wandering healer, a fortune teller, etc' without being heavily conflict involved and doesn't need to be contested. That sometimes turns into something more and has meaning/significance, or doesn't. In the end it's all good fun. It's what the second part of the original suggestion is about too.

Replying to these kinds of posts feels somewhat unfruitful, since to me it feels like I'm pointing out the obvious somewhat. Maybe that's not how you're intending to come across. I'm a person with a mindset of seeing opportunities and positives in the day to day, so it might just be a perspective issue and not really being on the same page to begin with.

[Chance]

...one big reason for this is that by simplifying the apps, flavor apps seem a lot more dead. You only have 'Wonders' as a location to app for something that like, summons a bunch of spirits or creates a plague or whatever.

Please see the Player Guide, specifically that part in bolded letters there. You can request anything. People often do make flavor/IC requests of the more unconventional nature.  You don't use the forums for this.

I think a guide or some information on what this could entail to help with inspiration/guidance would be a positive, and anyone is free and encouraged to write that.

[Apollo Densin]

So what chance is saying. Bring back the ooc tower raids and ooc dojo? Where we all hang out and shit talk in LOOC? Sounds good to me.

Real suggestion there is you are able to do /dojo. This teleports you into a dojo building where you can hop into an arena and are able to spar with whomever you wish. Done fighting for the day and want to head off to RP? just hit /dojo again and you are teleported back to your point you first /dojo

[Artorias]

This is kind of a shitpost at this point I guess, but if you made it so Agg 0 was the standard wilderness instead of D1's you would see far less PvP focus. Would solve scared individuals afraid to leave settlements and let me tell you, there's a lot of them. Would also stop the danger farmers, who merely dress their RP to allow them to do so.

Dying on first encounter was a rather rare thing before Atrellya and the Night creatures, and I personally think it was still a good idea to introduce them... Even if some of the deaths were problematic.

[StarMann]

The following is just a series of mostly ramblings and putting thoughts to 'paper'. Moreso things I have been considering about the game wrt this topic.

A big issue that I haven't seen fully touched upon and it is a reason why people use rebirth potions and change builds: Balance changes can often be sweeping and completely change how a build plays. I'm not going to doomer and say that things get "ruined" by changes but they do get altered to the point where it's no longer compatible with what you are doing.

The game's conflict resolution for anything below big diplomacy is pretty much always going to be a fight because that's the only way people can "evenly" interact with one another without going towards areas of potential god modding. It very often feels like the only way you get to prove your point is by beating the opposition in a fight. This in turn means that "might makes right" is always going to be the perceived main route.

Yes, there are likely examples of people not needing to verb to settle something but there are no other mechanically supported avenues. The issue then is that there aren't any other avenues that can reasonably be supported. There is also the issue that a character's IC strength is tied to their OOC ability as a player. I am truly hoping that the turn based fighting can be embraced more due to this as the realtime reaction style verbing currently is quite inaccessible.

Though with all this you have the other hand, where verbing and fights like this are Eternia's core identity. Many people play this game because the conflict resolution revolves around how competent they are at the combat. And so when people ask to change the fundamentals of the game, they are doing so at the expense of these players. There is room for improvement in places, tightening up systems and such but they are a core part of the game's identity.

The game has always been "pvp oriented" there's just more ways now to be rapidly and publicly vocal about it. I don't think there is more discourse overall, just that it can be posted easily and without much considering in a discord channel over the previous suggestion threads in the past. I think it would lead to healthier discussions to reduce the discord posting, honestly I think wizard wars is just a venting channel for the most part and the combat suggestions channel as a whole could do with slow posting enabled so that people consider their points a little more.

[Nullia]

I disagree with most of the sentiments here. You can in fact pursue other avenues besides fighting. Again, I made a character around that entire concept. Successfully, even. There are other options. The issue isn't that they don't exist, or that there's no way to incentivize them, the issue is that fighting is incentivized. Heavily, for many current characters, with how NCs work, Demons work, and Beasts work. And heavily for PCs because they have to fight those antags. The opportunity for people to actually do non-incentivized things like I am grows smaller the more rewarding combat is, and the majority of current antags are rewarded heavily for combat.


But if we're off track with that, then let's get on track.

Issue #1: Rebirths.
Removing rebirths doesn't do anything, because people going for meta already have the build in mind. It also doesn't do anything because the current meta has been around so long that people have had more than enough time to safely spawn into it, and it's still dominating. Rebirths don't fix what's happening right now.
Since I think it got missed in the clutter, I'll repeat it. The issue is that the meta isn't changing quickly enough to punish people who chase it. It's been the same trees (fire, ether, armed) for almost as long as I've been playing, which is three months. People aren't rebirthing into it at this point, they're literally spawning into it. Removing rebirths doesn't help. I don't personally consider the flood of FOTM builds healthy. I think the sentiment of getting bored seeing the same builds over and over is a decently common one, and I share it. It also punishes people playing off-meta IC builds, limiting who they can actually fight.
What would fix this is shifting the meta at least once a month. It punishes people meta-chasing with the threat that it won't be good for long, and that they will get overshadowed by something else in a short time. I know that's some hefty balance work, but it's also in interest of the game's health. 

Issue #2: Incentives.
I'll be honest it doesn't do anything for me. I have no interest in this incentive without more elaboration. Right now it just sounds like something I'd ignore completely.

[BerylFlint]

As a person that has considered methods of 'combat' focused dev items, be that through the creation of ticketable dev items or aka the ways that an entirely crafting focused character could affect combat, I've come to the conclusion that it's possible but very difficult. The factors that go into this generally include 'materials', 'people', 'story', ‘time’, and the fact that it's not generally… I don't know, accepted? Not by admins or anything, there isn't a broad history of items that do such, not like simply making a weapon, and so it goes mostly unknown. Its been done before, but its not common.

If you provide a RPable way for the more non-combatants to interchange in combat in a way they enjoy, then it may solve some of the issues of needing to be so PVP centric. In a way of like, ‘sure little Billy doesn't have a meta-build that will keep him alive against this hunked up fighter, but he did create an item or potions with his friends that defines him that evens the scales somewhat, or even mechanically pauses the fight, forcing them to talk.’ and so on. Of course, this comes into question: what defines evening the scales? What if the meta-fighters get these items, and is only better due to such? But honestly, knowing the normalized ‘battlecuck’ audience, it's a touch or go if they actually would care, because… Dev items like that usually take a very long amount of time, and they’re out fighting and would probably focus on weapons instead. The app system was made to balance that, so… why not continue with it with items?

So yeah, if one could normalize Ticketable dev items, or even more crazily, create a mechanical basis for items like that, I think it could help. It would give a path for non-hunked up fighters or crafters to approach, and I think it could be well done without god-modding and in a balanced way depending on a number of factors, such as apping, dev, potential chance mechanics, IC, literal counter items, not needing to just be -vit items, and so on.

Some people might create weapons to affect combat, and some might create items to avoid or twist the field entirely. There is so much creativity one can do with items like that, and while it doesn't fix the situation, it could add another plane and help.


(Albeit in that it could help if the apping system was alittle faster too, albeit I know you're all busy)